This blog is a place to archive project processes and techniques from Painted Threads with descriptions of how work was produced. I am including comments that contain questions and answers pertaining to the work from many of the original blog posts.

Tuesday, January 26, 2010

Making: Oh Deer, Look What's become of Me!

I started a whole cloth painted quilt for the Robert Kaufman Solid Expressions exhibit and was panicked because I didn’t have a lot of time to make it, so I decided to post the progress daily on my Painted Threads blog.

This post is the culmination of the weeks spent making the quilt. I used Ivory Kona Solid fabric and I did not have extra fabric if I screwed up. Normally I never show my work in progress, I always feel kind of afraid I won't be able to pull it off or feel sort of superstitious about it, but I figured I would share my anxiety I mean progress live this time.

I have had this book on medieval hunting scenes for several years and have always wanted to do something inspired by it. I love the colors and flat 2 dimensional style of the paintings, very reminiscent of tapestries done in that period.

I also love the depiction of deer in those woodland scenes with flowers carpeting the flat green ground like wall paper and skies that have a patterned all over stylized design.

I really wanted to paint something similar, but I didn’t want to just recreate a pretty painting, I wanted the imagery to tell a different story, something quirky and unexpected.

Looking at these paintings got me thinking about so many different things; like the way this painting style uniquely captures a period in history and the stylized graphic quality of the painting is not quite realistic. Then I thought about the various ways deer have been depicted over time and how different styles become popular and then unfashionable.

What would happen when images from two different time periods were brought face to face in a vintage scene? The juxtaposition of traditional and contemporary styles seemed intriguing.

I began imagining a majestic deer in a medieval painted scene walking across a flowered hillside and coming upon a kitschy little deer figurine, like the ones that were so popular in the 1960’s, and imagined its shock, seeing such a distorted little figure with giant blue eyes cheerfully looking up at it.

Of course I am starting bigger than I really should given my time frame, it is 57" x 43" right now, but it will shrink down more with quilting, but I want it to have a decent impact and if it is too small, I don't think it will look as good.

I am painting a piece of Ivory Kona solid fabric, I think the ivory color will help give the painting a warm muted color palette reminiscent of the medieval paintings and I plan on leaving the ivory fabric exposed in areas of the sky with some scroll like filigree painted in beige or gold or maybe both.

I painted the ground and base of the treetops using a lot of textile medium mixed in with the paint so that it would have more of a transparent gradation of color. All the medium in the paint makes it more likely to show brushstrokes and unevenness in the color but hopefully a lot of that will be camouflaged by the plants and leaves painted on top. I cut freezer paper templates of the deer and tree trunks and ironed them in place to protect the fabric from the green paint.

Today I start painting the leaves on the trees and hopefully tackle one of the deer.

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I painted 4 hours in the afternoon and 3 hours in the evening and have still not finished the leaves.
The leaves are now being painted with opaque paints with a fair amount of white mixed in.  I am using opaque paints because I need that opacity to paint on the dark green backgrounds.
After I painted the green background on the trees, I had to put my fabric and printed cartoon on a light table and retrace the lines for the leaves. I used a mechanical pencil that Bohin makes with white lead.


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I got in a couple hours of painting time today and finished up the trees. As the painting progresses there is always the possibility that they will need further tweaking, but they are done enough to move on to something else.
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Saturday night I managed to get the big deer painted. I used a transparent brown textile paint and used varying amounts of textile medium (Jacquard; colorless extender) to lighten the color. I plan on painting brush stroke hairs over the majority of the deer similar to the way the animals are painted in the hunting paintings, but I will probably tackle the little deer first and come back to details after.

jojo said...

What is your working surface? Floor or table? Are you painting cotton broadcloth?


judy coates perez said...

Jojo, I am working on a large table that is probably close to 5 feet square. I am painting on Kona solid fabric by Kaufmann, it is ivory.

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I painted the little deer using opaque paints with white because I wanted him to feel more like a solid object, since those figurines were always made of glass or plastic. I also wanted it to have a brighter cheerier look than the more serious painting referenced background so it is painted using a warmer more colorful brown.

zquilts said...

Wonderful as always Judy!
I have a difficult time finding a way to ensure equal time for paints, wools and quilts but you seem to carry it off with great aplomb !

judy coates perez said...

Marie, I don't necessarily juggle everything all that well, its just that usually when I finish making a big quilt like this, I really need to do something different and tap into another part of my brain. So I usually turn to knitting for a while, then when I want to start painting again I opt for some smaller scale mixed media until I am ready to take on the challenge of a big intense quilt project again.

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I painted hairs on the deer to look more like the deer in the hunting paintings, it also has the benefit of looking stylistically more different from the smooth painting style of the little deer. I also darkened up the shade side of the antlers to give them a little more definition.

When I work I usually leave my paper cartoon under my fabric and slide plastic underneath the fabric to create a barrier to the paper. Dry cleaning bags work great because they are thin soft plastic, easily smoothed out and less like likely to show creases.


The filigree scroll pattern was painted with an ocher brown transparent paint diluted with a lot of textile medium (colorless extender) that made a nice soft creamy yellow color.

It probably looks like I am getting close to being finished but I still have a lot of painting to do. I need to add gold to the scroll work to give it definition and I still have all the flowers and grasses to paint on the ground.
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I outlined the yellow scroll design with metallic gold paint, to give it that classic gilded touch.
Now I begin the plants, it will probably take me a few days to paint all the flowers and grasses. The plants will be in a variety of greens from the green I have painted first to strong yellow greens like in the leaves of the trees.
The plants I have started painting first are made with emerald green and white. It looks really blue  against the bright yellow-green background, but that color is true to the hunting paintings.

Quilt Rat said...

Wow! the detail, the shading, so beautiful. I am curious to know.....do you draw those plants freehand onto the green base or are you somehow able to trace them from behind?
Love that unique sky.

judy coates perez said...

Thanks Quilt Rat,

Where the green is lighter I am able to see through the fabric enough to trace off my plant designs, but on the darker green it can be pretty hard to see through, so I use a light box to put under the fabric and trace the plants. Then there will be some plants that i will just freehand draw to fill in open spaces.

Vicky~ stichr ~ said...

Judy the difference in the 2 deer is fantastic! Will the white behind the scroll remain white? I picture your quilting changing that....will this be quilted?

judy coates perez said...

thanks Vicky,
The white fabric behind the scroll work will stay white. It is an ivory color. I will be quilting this when i am done.

Natalya said...

wow Judy! I haven't stopped by your blog in a while... how neat to see your new work in progress! it does not look like you have any anxiety about it at all! it looks wonderful!


judy coates perez said...

Thanks Natalya, the further along in the process I get, the more relaxed I become, but then the anxiety will start all over again when it is time to quilt it!

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The only green on my thumbs is from paint. I love plants, I am just not very good at keeping them alive. Except for cacti and succulents, I do really well with those, but unfortunately I don't live in California anymore.

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I have finished painting the greenery and am now painting the flowers. I am only using red, yellow, white and blue for the flowers since that is the limits of the flower colors in the hunting paintings. I have chosen to make the white flowers tinted a little pink just so they are not a stark white. So far I have worked through red and yellow, next I will start on blue.

After I finish the flowers I will start painting in the grass.

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I only had a short amount of time to paint yesterday so I didn't get as far as I would have liked. Hopefully today I will get the rest of the flowers painted and begin the grass.

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I think after eleven hours of painting yesterday it is done. There is always the possibility I will tweak things here and there. I had to force myself to stop last night at midnight, I was touching up lights and darks on the leaves on the tree on the right to give them a little more contrast. I probably could have spent another hour touching them up here and there.


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I have spent the last few days catching up with life; cleaning the house, going to the bank, getting groceries, doing laundry...and trying to figure out how to tackle the quilting.

Usually I like my quilting to create a certain amount of depth and texture as well as interesting thread work. With this quilt I want to create a flatter, more like a painting or tapestry quilt. So I have been in a quandary about what to use for batting.

Personally, I prefer wool batting over other types because it is light weight, does not retain creases if the quilt has been folded, has a nice loft when the quilting is further apart and gets flat and thin when the quilting is heavy which creates really nice quilting texture.

Cotton batting is flat, but it is heavy, bulky when pushing the quilt under the sewing machine and holds creases and folds forever.

I have used wool blend felt for small mixed media pieces and really like the way it quilts and how it holds its shape. So I thought about using 100% wool felt which I happened to find at Joannes for $17.99 a yard. This seemed like a great option, it’s a little squishy and thicker than wool blend felt. I quilted a small sample and really liked it, so I fused my quilt top to the wool with Mistyfuse, which does not stiffen the fabric like some of the other fusible webs.

When finished, I really liked the flat sturdiness of the fused top, but when I picked up the quilt top it felt heavy and pretty stiff, this was worrisome. I put the whole thing on my sewing machine and brought the needle to the center of the quilt to slide it around following some of the shapes as though I were quilting it. Then I knew I had a problem, it was hard to manipulate the top smoothly, because of its bulk, I could just imagine how hard it would be to keep my stitching lines fluid and smooth. I was already envisioning the knots in my neck and shoulders forming while wrestling the top under the needle.

I put the top back on my pressing board and with Nina’s help ran the hot iron over the surface in sections to warm the fusible web and peeled the painted top off the felt.

I remember from previous experiments that if I put Mistyfuse on the top and back fabric and fused it to wool batting, the batting would loose some of its loft. Now I have refused the top to wool batting and fused the backing fabric as well to the batting. It is still a little puffy, but I know it will be much easier to maneuver under the arm of the machine. Next is the scary part, starting!

stay tuned...
luanne said...
i'm slightly confused about whether you ended up re-fusing the top to the wool felt or to a different wool batting material? either way, just the concept of fusing the large painted top sounds scary enough to me, much less unfusing and re-fusing it. but as this series of posts has shown, you're a confident risk-taker in pursuit of your artistic vision, and i so admire/envy that. your quilting will be equally fabulous -- good luck & can't wait to see the progress!
 
judy coates perez said...
Hi Luanne, yes I know it sounds crazy, I fused the top to wool felt, then unfused it from the felt and then fused it to wool batting, crossing my fingers all the while.
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I started the quilting by outlining the deer and tree trunks to stabilize the fabric and the batting. I always try to work around the quilt covering some broad areas very simply and then slowly work in more detailed quilting, working evenly across the quilt. The reason for that is to avoid having areas with really dense quilting that pulls the fabric in, shrinking its surface area, making big poofy open spots that are harder to quilt evenly without getting puckers or creases in the quilted fabric.

I started to outline quilt the scroll work in the sky with gold metallic thread. I put Bottom Line in the bobbin and metallic thread on top, and started quilting. I was very unhappy with the way the thread was bunching up on my starts and stops, then the thread started skipping stitches and breaking fairly often. I changed the needle to a titanium 90/14 which should handle the metallic thread even better than the standard 90/14, but the thread still shredded and broke. My Janome 6600 is very finicky when it comes to thread not matching in the bobbin and top, so that may have been the biggest problem. Since I did not want to put metallic thread in the bobbin, it was going to be a nightmare to quilt the way things were going.

I figured my best course of action at this point was going to be to switch machines. I pulled out my old Pfaff Creative 1475 (17 years young), which has always handled a variety of threads wonderfully, reacquainted myself with it, threaded it up with the gold thread and it quilted like a dream.
I have decided to stick with the Pfaff for now since it is doing so well and have moved on to regular thread again quilting the leaves on one of the trees.

Anita said...

Your quilting has transformed your work into an amazing 3-dimensional piece! Have you tried these?... tensions at or near zero,thread feeding vertically, not horizontally, don't thread the last loop before the needle. My Janome is happy when I follow these steps.

judy coates perez said...

Anita, I did all you recommend, to no avail. I think each sewing machine seems to have its own idiosyncrasies, all I know is my Pfaff has always done well with what ever thread I put on it and the janome needs to have matching thread in top and bobbin otherwise there are problems.

Sarah Ann Smith said...

Judy..... you shouldn't have those sorts of problems when quilting on the 6500/6600...... One thought: when the thread started breaking, had you been quilting a while? When the needle warms up (yes, even the titanium Topstitch warm up), it transmits heat to the metal in the metallic thread, and it starts acting up. You don't need to toss the needle... just swap it out for a cool needle!


Also, using the Bottom Line with metallic is perfect... if you used metallic in the bottom also, the bobbin thread would grab and snag at the needle thread. It is best to do just what you did... smooth/slick in the bobbin!


The best thing I've found is to use a topstitch needle...MUCH larger eye than a regular. Which kind of needle (not just size) were you using???


I'm glad the Pfaff is working for you, but I'd love to help troubleshoot the issues with the Janome... it SHOULD (ahem, we all know how that goes!) work...

judy coates perez said...

Hi Sarah, it wasn't a hot needle issue, it was just having problems and I just didn't want to mess with it any more, I have a short deadline on this one.

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I have finished quilting the trees, I did not want to obscure the lines of painted images so I am opting to quilt slightly outside the painted image lines. I want it to retain its painting quality. I often have a tendency to quilt over my lines, so it becomes harder to tell if it is painted.
I am outlining all the plants in the grass with green thread, then I will add quilted details to the larger leaves.

Laura said...

Hi Judy,
What type of thread and needle are you using for this quilting top and bottom. I really like the look of it. Also it's hard to tell but about how many stitches per inch are you quilting? You have such great control and I love the rhythm of your quilting:)

judy coates perez said...

Hi Laura,
I am using primarily Madeira polyneon thread. I have a lot of colors in that so I end up using that the most, but I also have threads by several other companies that get used if the color is right, most of them are good quality polyester threads. I like Madeira's polyester threads because they have a nice sheen, don't make a lot of lint and they are strong. I usually put it in the bobbin too. But I also really like bottom line from Superior for the bobbin and I also use it if I want to use a thinner weight thread.

I use Organ titanium needles, size 90/14.

My quilting stitches vary because I am freemotion quilting everything. But to give you a sense of scale, in the first picture, the tree leaves are about an inch and a half in length.

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To quilt the details on the plants I am drawing them on with my Bohin marking pencil. I have put in a pink lead to give a little more contrast than the white since some of the leaves are a bit light.


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I quilted the hills with a simple contour quilting line. I chose to use that design for several reasons; one because I want the hills to be a simpler pattern than the foreground imagery, also if I quilt the grass area vertically I like the contrast of the horizontal line and lastly with time being an issue, I didn't want to do anything too complex.

For the sky I am quilting between the scroll work, filling in the white space with a contour design. I think it gives a sense of movement to the sky, I am about 1/3 of the way done with it.

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I have to tell you, I was so scared to start quilting the big deer. I was having a hard time trying to decide what was the best way to tackle it, so I put it off as long as I could. The issue I struggled with was trying to figure out the best way to do make him look kind of furry and not obscure the painted hairs. In the paintings, the deer appear very shaggy, so I stitched around the painted hairs using the direction of the strokes as my guide for the quilting.

I used two different brown Superior Bottom Line threads, a light brown for the cheek, chest and belly and dark brown for the rest. Bottom line is very thin, I used this specifically because I wanted the quilted texture, but I did not want the thread itself to stand out too much. I used a basic stipple quilting stitch on his antlers to make them appear more like they have a short velvety texture.

judy coates perez said...

Thanks for the support everyone. There is always a bit of anxiety when creating a big piece of art. It's that little voice that nags at you, that with each step in the process you could screw it up. But the important thing to keep in mind while working is it usually works out just fine so you need to tell that insecure voice to be quiet.

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I am now quilting the grass, while delaying my decision about what to do about the little deer.

My initial thoughts on quilting the grass was to use three shades of green; light yellow green for the lower half, a leafy green for the mid section and darker green for the darkest part of the grass along the top edge and quilting between the painted blades, but then, I was not sure exactly how to do it.
I started with the leaf green and quilted around each paint stroke defining it like a blade of grass. I did not like the way it looked at all. It seemed messy and the green thread looked too dark. So I changed threads to the lighter green and started working in another area making my lines continuous from one plant to the next, carefully stitching along the previously quilted outlines of the plants to get to the next blade.

I am happy with how this looks, I have also decided to only use the two lighter greens and skip the dark one. Now I have lots of thread snipping to do from the first grass quilting attempt.

I am really torn about quilting the little deer. I am thinking about either stuffing it a little bit with trapunto and not quilting it, so it really contrasts with its surroundings or quilt it with some big flower power style floral motifs. I have been debating this point since I began the quilting and was hoping I would come to a decision by the time I have to do it. I guess I have 24 hours or less left.

I think I may need to go back and do a little more quilting in the scroll designs in the sky, I would like to leave them fairly simple, but I don't want them to look buckled or bumpy. So I need to quilt them just enough to lay smooth.

I know all the "rules" about having quilting that is consistent across the quilt surface so that it hangs right, etc., but I think it is also nice to see the contrast in textures with different types of quilting, especially when its use or lack of use works conceptually with the design. Hold your torches please, I am not a big fan of the trend toward excessive infinitesimal all over quilting.

diane said...

This may be a foolish question but I have never quilted on a painted surface for a quilt. If you make a mistake, can you rip it out or does it leave tiny holes where the needle punctured the surface?


I love the way you're doing this piece and it inspires me to try something myself. Your work is always just amazing to me.

judy coates perez said...

Diane, unfortunately the needle does make little holes. I try to burnish over the holes with my fingernail or something to make them less noticeable when I do not want any stitching in that area and then try to stitch directly over the holes again in places where I want quilting.

Lisa said...

I love that I can open the photos all the way up and get a nice close look at the stitches because I couldn't see the color difference in the smaller photos. I do like the lighter colored thread.


Your stitches are so even - are you using a walking foot or doing free motion stitching? I am still working on getting my free motion stitches so even. I suppose if I had a stitch regulator then it might be a bit easier too.

judy coates perez said...

Hi Lisa, it is all free motion. I think it takes practice and a lot of warm up time. When I started the quilt, I was feeling a little out of practice and I have noticed over time it has become easier to stay consistent with my stitches. But I still have stitches here and there that are too big or too small. I notice that happens most often when the quilt gets caught on something, like the bulk of the rolled up portion gets stuck against the presser foot lever or something. That is always annoying and I am always debating about stopping and doing it over or just going on. If it is very noticeable I stop and re do the stitching.

I don't know about other people, but I also tend to use my body to move the quilt when I am doing long lines (3-5 inches) free motion and not moving my wrists and hands.

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Last Thursday I called my photographer and made an appointment to get the quilt photographed Monday morning. In order to make that happen, I worked all through the weekend to get this quilt done. I still had grass to quilt, scroll work to quilt, the little deer to trapunto, block the quilt, trim the quilt, bind it in some manner and stitch a sleeve on it. The label could wait until Tuesday.

After quilting the grass, I stitched some decorative quilting lines to the scroll work.
I used two different marking tools to draw the lines on the scroll work before quilting it. I started with the Bohin marking pencil but got tired of erasing my lines after stitching, so I changed to an orange chalk pencil. When I was done quilting, I tried brushing away the chalk, it did not go away. I used a stiff brush, then a cloth, then a wet cloth and scrubbed at the chalk lines. The color finally seemed to go away, but I noticed that the yellow quilted thread seemed to be stained kind of orange. Not sure that I was okay with that, I decided the orange either needed to go away completely or I needed to work with it. Since I didn't know how to make the orange go away, I decided to use a yellow ocher colored pencil to accentuate the stitched center with some deeper color.

I was unsure if it would be a total mistake or if the added color be okay, but now I think the extra quilting lines and color gave just the right amount of subtle complexity to the sky to help balance the very detailed lower portion of the quilt without competing with it.

Deer pre-trapunto
trapunto stuffing from the back
After finishing the deer, I stretched the quilt out on the floor to block it and pinned around the deer as well, to try and smooth out the quilt and ease the slight buckling of the fabric under the deer.
I think I may have over stuffed him a bit. Maybe that reinforces his kitschy-ness, he definitely contrasts with the rest of the quilt, lol.

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I considered just doing a turned edge to finish the quilt, but I thought I needed to have something that was a little more flashy or "guild-ed"?, so I decided to do a corded edge, twisting several fibers together that would incorporate the colors used in the quilt. After blocking and trimming the quilt I laid out several yarns to audition them.

The first thing I needed to do was prevent any quilted threads from unraveling around the edge of the quilt. To do that I stitched a straight stitch, very close to the edge around the whole quilt. Then I used metallic gold thread in the top and brown thread in the bobbin and zig zag stitched around the edge of the quilt twice with a fairly tight stitch but not a satin stitch. Sometimes a dense satin stitch around the edge of a quilt can stretch it and make it ripple. I was not too concerned with making a solid gold edge around the quilt, just add some extra sparkle next to the cording.
Then I sewed a few stitches to secure the yarns to the back side edge of the quilt. Using an open toe foot and monofilament in the top I zig zagged over the twisted yarns stitching them to the edge of the quilt.
This is a slow process because the yarns tend to get very twisted and tangled if you are not careful. I usually put a couple of the yarns in separate little baggies to try and keep them from rolling away and really making a mess. I start twisting the yarn clockwise down one side of the quilt, working a few inches at a time, then I usually twist them counter clockwise on the next side and clockwise again on the next, it sort of helps manage all the twisted yarns better.
The last thing to do before sewing on the sleeve and label is to sign the quilt. Finished quilt photos to come.
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It is officially done, yay!, except for the label which I am sewing on tomorrow. Then it gets sent off to Kaufman Fabrics to be in a traveling special exhibit using their Kona Solid Fabric line. When I find out the schedule of venues I will post it.



Justine said...

Beautiful, would love to see it in person. What were the final dimensions so I can get a sense of the scale? Justine

judy coates perez said...

Justine, It is 54" x 42"

judy coates perez said...

It's a little scary putting art in progress out there publicly, I am always afraid to show things until I am done or pretty far a long. I don't know if it is silly superstition that if I show everyone what I am doing I will surely screw it up or what, so it was an interesting experiment.

It was really nice to hear feedback from everyone along the way, it helped keep me motivated to get finished on time. I was pretty scared I wouldn't make it in the beginning.

Cher said...

Judy, your quilt is fantastic. I have looked forward to your updates to see the progress. Thanks for showing us along the way. I love how you quilted the grass, it's very effective. What batting did you use?

judy coates perez said...

Cher, I always use Hobbs Heirloom wool. It has a nice loft to accentuate the quilting, it is also very lightweight and does not pull on you while you are quilting and lastly it squishes up a lot so you can maneuver it under the arm much easier than bulky cotton.

15 comments:

  1. Dear Judy, I have been a fan of your work for a long time following you in Quilting Arts. I was fascinated to watch you go step by step thru your process on "Oh Deer" it was like hanging out in your studio and watching you work. THANK YOU for sharing.
    Lauretta Crites

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  2. What a wonderful process post, Judy! Talk about telling a story!

    I love seeing the development of a piece, and following along with the design decisions as they have to be made. It helps us realise that we all face the same kind of creative choices mid-process regardless of what level we might perceive ourselves to be at.

    And a glorious finished piece as well! I love, love, love those medieval paintings, manuscripts and tapestries, and you've captured that so well - but with Bambi! Fabulous.

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  3. Thanks for posting this into one area so we could follow along from beginning to end. I just absolutely love this piece of yours. It also helps to understand your decisions and why you made them. It really helps me not to be quite so afraid to tackle a project and that everyone faces indecision or change during a piece.

    I'm headed to Palm Springs this next week and signed up for a painting on fabric class from Patt Blair ( http://pattsart.blogspot.com/) and after taking your color class online last year this should help. I would so love to take a class from you. If you are ever in WA please let me know or somewhere on the west coast.
    Laura T

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  4. Thank you for taking the time to share your process. So much work went into this quilt! The finished piece is fabulous and takes on new significance upon hearing about the historical background of your inspiration. Love the title!

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  5. What an absolutely fascinating journey and gorgeous final work. Thank you for sharing it in all its detail.

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  6. Thank you for sharing the details of this quilt. What a "tour de force"! Congratulations!

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  7. I love those paintings as well, as anything Medeival. Love your take on the little deer. the painting and quilting is exquisite!

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  8. What a beautiful piece! I really am amazed at what you are able to accomplish! Your painting and then quilting it! Its absolutely beautiful! I have seen your pieces on Quilting Arts and in their magazines. I am just in awe of what you do! Thank you so much for posting this in detail!

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  9. Thanks Susan! I am happy to share and hopefully help someone else who might get stuck in the process too.

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  10. Wow! You are so talented. Your work is beautiful.

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  11. Thank you so much for sharing your methods and rationale with us all. I started back to work today in the New Year - I import unusual fabrics for quilters - and it was so stimulating to go through your blog. Many thanks, Gill Shaddick

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  12. Judy, this is one of the most beautiful quilt projects I have ever seen! How very inspirational... and it was fascinating to read the entire post and chart its progress. I do hope you do this again some time - the comments were also really interesting. Wonderful work!

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  13. Wow ~ thank you for your generosity by sharing your muse, techniques, stumbles, and solutions.

    This is a fabulous piece and you are a fabulous artist.

    Much success!

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  14. Such a talent. I would like to try your technique. After hand heals

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